Rome - Cancer or Greatness

[Emperor Caesar]

I was recently reminiscing about the good Rome I music and ran across a comment on a video called "Rome Total War The Glory of Rome." It featured the song from the menu of Rome I (which I do like.) But the comments that set me off read this.

"Rome was the gratest cancer that devastated europe. So many reasonable cultures, who lived in perfect balance with nature were destroyed. So much pain and suffering, so many slaves. War war war, march on. Just like a disease which finds strength within the organism that it plunders, so did Rome thrive at the expenses of all it's slaves. Until it reached that island on the north, which not even the vikings could conquer. U hate a divided world? Reincarnate as a woman in islam, see if u like it."

"No, Rome fell because of several reasons, like corruption in management.Conservative values hinder development (remember the medieval age?). It's not respect for gays that corrupts, but conservatives in power who take public money for theyr lobbies and wars.
Just like Rome, the US lives on because they sell so many weapons to warring nations; they even incite and cause war there. Saddam Hussein was in power thanks to US. And when the oil stopped flowing peacefully, there was a desert storm."


There were even more of them but I won't get them all down. I of course had to respond, how could someone slander them like that - but of course I support freedom of speech.

"A cancer? I cannot believe it. What has the world come to where we disrespect the achievements of the ancients? You don't realize how much you take for granted do you? You know English - heavily influenced by Latin. The world would be much different without cities like Paris, London, York, Toulouse, and a lot more. Look it up. The Romans gave us covered sewer systems, ideas for running water, building roads. They perfected the dome and the arch - your welcome. How about concrete - once more perfected since their architecture has stood for over 2,000 years. And if you think everyone was living in perfect balance before Rome, you're way wrong. All the barbarian tribes were fighting each other, and if Rome hadn't rise it would have been Carthage, Etruria, or Parthia. Rome gave us the basis of laws and government for the whole world *cough* Twelve Tables *cough* but it's certainly not Rome's fault they became corrupt. There's a reason great cultures follow Rome's example. Read a book before you bash a people who have stood the test of time."

I know most of us in this forum are pro-Roman but I just wanted to know your thoughts about it. Could Rome have made the world worse than it could have been? Or are they a better benefit to history? You know my thoughts (Rome is the greatest!!!) so what are yours?

Here is the link for reference

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Their arguments mostly are influenced by Nationalism and Liberalism.

Conservatism promotes advancement more than Liberalism; look at Soviet Russia, who took 30 years of Famine to industrialize. Competition promotes advancement, so does war.

Second of all, the Romans actually did not approve of Homosexuality either, it was considered immoral.

Third of all is the Nationalism involved - people can't be united because of Nationalistic beliefs. Look at Greece, trying to kick out all the "Non-Greeks." It's not about your people, its about one people as equals. The US is the US because we don't think of ourselves as Germans or Blacks or Mexicans, we think of ourselves as Americans, no better or no worse than each other. The Romans were able to bring that same sense of unity - if you lived under Roman Rule, you were a Roman. Their nation lasted for 2300 years because of that.

The Romans did conquer Britain, its possible they even attempted an invasion of Ireland, in fact when the Romans left the people of Britain travelled to Britanny in France to REMAIN UNDER ROMAN RULE.

[Diocle]

The truth is that those comments, are comments by idiots and illiterate, that is: scum. You are a good person Emp, don't waste your time with those idiots.

Internet is becoming a social landfill, for criminals, idiots, scum and Nazis.

We should always remember this sad truth: 'The mom of the idiots is always pregnant.'

[BroskiDerpman]

I don't get these arguments, they're just a time drainer in which you argue pointless things and never learn. (Arguing in the IB subforums made me learn quite a few things)

Take the IB:SAI Persian (Sassanid) vs Rome video. It has a ton of views but all the posts are a bunch of baboons (Remember the TV show Rome? ) with people posting random stuff like: No way man Rome is da master culture my legions go wudadadadada on you tiny Persians. Or the stereotypical "foreign" (In this case Iran) person who speaks of cultural superiority. Then one person argues that Arabs are the best people on earth, the Persians are idiots, the Romans are all gay or whatever.

Never read the Youtube comments section especially if the video is not from a gamer or is specifically just depicting stuff from several cultures. (You wouldn't believe the amount of people who post of their beloved Roman super men in a video depicting Romance of the Three Kingdoms)


In my opinion without Rome there would be another group to fill the gap since that always has to happen in my thoughts. No top dog? There'll be another.

But these people are just plain idiots, no need to even tell them anything.

Heck I'm not obsessed with Rome anymore (I was) yet that doesn't mean that I feel the need to undermine everything they did for the Western world we live in now.

[Mary The Quene]

Rome is great But the hellenics are better

Yeah there's no point going to discuss this with ignorant people who're probably political brainwashed

Its the same to iranians who consider Alexander as an 'alcoholic rapist, a maniac arsonist, and a diabolical, sadistic mass murderer'

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/alexander1/

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

first off, I agree with everyone here: they're a waste of time. However, I think a deconstruction will explain why in detail--especially as I am (gasp!) not pro-roman:

"Rome was the gratest cancer that devastated europe. So many reasonable cultures, who lived in perfect balance with nature were destroyed. So much pain and suffering,

All cultures created some level of pollution--yes, even the hippie-like Celts...trees are cut down, wood and peat burned, and slag runs off their quality blacksmiths. Also, I will quote the Qur'an on the matter of the last part (the so much pain and suffering):

و لقد خلقنا الإنسان في كبد

to translate this (very loosely), man has always suffered. there was a lot of suffering before and After Rome, and in Rome too. I could think of far worse than the Romans in fact (like the Mongols, Huns, and if you're Palestinian, the Israelis).

so many slaves. War war war, march on. Just like a disease which finds strength within the organism that it plunders, so did Rome thrive at the expenses of all it's slaves. Until it reached that island on the north, which not even the vikings could conquer. U hate a divided world? Reincarnate as a woman in islam, see if u like it.

everyone acted this way: the Greeks enslaved people, and justified it: we know the Celts and Germanic people did the same. my own people practiced slavery well into the twentieth century in some regions. same applies to war: everyone wanted to curbstomp someone. the only difference is that the Romans were better at it. Slave economies were the norm until well into the early modern period, even if the form varied (serfdom comes to mind)

Also, the status of women in Islam varies from place to place, according to cultural norms, levels of income, the sect of Islam (we have many) etc. There are a lot of problems in the Muslim world, and the "orthodoxy" within, but still...

So what Islam are we talking about? It's like saying all Christian behave like Baptists do, or all baptists behave like the westboro Baptist Church.

this whole lines reeks of ignorance...

"No, Rome fell because of several reasons, like corruption in management.Conservative values hinder development (remember the medieval age?). It's not respect for gays that corrupts, but conservatives in power who take public money for theyr lobbies and wars.
Just like Rome, the US lives on because they sell so many weapons to warring nations; they even incite and cause war there. Saddam Hussein was in power thanks to US. And when the oil stopped flowing peacefully, there was a desert storm."

further evidence that this guy is stupid: first off, we need to abandon this political false dichotomy: I'm neither conservative, nor liberal, but something else entirely as one example. And I'm sure many here don't fit so nicely.

further, Corruption has nothing to do with the liberalism or conservatism: there have been, and are, liberally governed places that are corrupt, and the other way around. it is the product of a variety of factors, though the largest is the fact that there has to be a government to bribe to even make this a possibility. same with Homophobia.And while the US did supply Saddam with weapons, it proves little, since far more liberal regimes also sent weapons to Saddam (France comes to mind, and the main engineer on Saddam's proposed mega-gun was a Canadian). Oil induces anyone with an interest in it equally: they only differ according to their wealth as to how they do it. Rome was little different.

finally, let's abandon this notion that the Middle ages was a time of stagnation: not it wasn't. While technology was lost, and many institutions reduced or forgotten, the period saw the opening of new opportunities, new ideas, and yes, new technologies, to grow where they had not been possible before: some of the tallest pre-modern buildings are medieval: some of the best fortifications in Europe are medieval. the best designed and most efficient weapons in pre-modern European history were medieval. And these leave out developments in the textile industry, in mechanical device building, distillation, fermentation, metalworking, etc. English Government is largely (if not entirely) a product of ideas and ideals born out of the middle ages. it was a dynamic period in the history of both Europe and the Near East, and should be treated accordingly.

[SD_Man]

The U.S. is the New Rome!!! WOOOOOHHHH!!!! USA!!!!
Honestly I would be perfectly alright if there was an "American Empire." Healthcare for everyone!!!

[Diocle]

....finally, let's abandon this notion that the Middle ages was a time of stagnation: not it wasn't. While technology was lost, and many institutions reduced or forgotten, the period saw the opening of new opportunities, new ideas, and yes, new technologies, to grow where they had not been possible before: some of the tallest pre-modern buildings are medieval: some of the best fortifications in Europe are medieval. the best designed and most efficient weapons in pre-modern European history were medieval. And these leave out developments in the textile industry, in mechanical device building, distillation, fermentation, metalworking, etc. English Government is largely (if not entirely) a product of ideas and ideals born out of the middle ages. it was a dynamic period in the history of both Europe and the Near East, and should be treated accordingly.

I agree with the meaning of your post, but I quoted the last part, because it's exactly what I think, and what actually the historians of the Early Middle Age are discovering everyday, correcting the FALSE assuption that after Rome all became dark, barbaric and dirty. No, this is not true, after Rome and on its ruins flourished the European Romano-Germanic civilization and the Arab civilization; there, outside the ruins of Rome, there is still a world, a whole universe, which need only to be (re)discovered, and studied at least with the same attention we abitually deserve to the Greek-Roman Civilization.

[Emperor Caesar]

I completely agree with you. But I thought this could be a thread to discuss how you feel about Rome and Rome's legacy and its lasting effects on the world, good and bad. There's a lot to talk about in that subject.

[Diocle]

Those who don't understand the role of the Greek-Roman culture and civilization in the basis of our present, are people whose existence on this planet is meaningless.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Yay Hellenism! Yay Romans! (Though I prefer Romans but Greeks are still cool)

[Sertorio]

"Rome was the gratest cancer that devastated europe. So many reasonable cultures, who lived in perfect balance with nature were destroyed. So much pain and suffering, so many slaves. War war war, march on. Just like a disease which finds strength within the organism that it plunders, so did Rome thrive at the expenses of all it's slaves. Until it reached that island on the north, which not even the vikings could conquer. U hate a divided world? Reincarnate as a woman in islam, see if u like it."

"No, Rome fell because of several reasons, like corruption in management.Conservative values hinder development (remember the medieval age?). It's not respect for gays that corrupts, but conservatives in power who take public money for theyr lobbies and wars.
Just like Rome, the US lives on because they sell so many weapons to warring nations; they even incite and cause war there. Saddam Hussein was in power thanks to US. And when the oil stopped flowing peacefully, there was a desert storm."

A poor attempt to combine Rome, Islamic women,gays and nature, all in the same text and on top of that relate it to USA. If i turn it upside down or read it right to left it still is meaningless.

As to a more serious discussion about the fall of Rome, Rome dedicated itself to expansion. Probably no other state seized so many opportunities to expand either by conquest or influence. Rome was ruthless if needed, we can see that in episodes like the conquest of northern Italy, or the destruction of Carthage, but could also be very political demanding nothing more than acknowledge for their leadership.
But the stability brought by the Principate started the downfall. Rome could not cope with the lack of advancement caused by keeping itself behind its borders. The only option remaining was again fighting for power inside the state. To that, measures taken like reducing the status of the border legions, creating the Commitatus as a response to any threat internal or external, dividing the military and civil powers thereby reducing the possibility of rebellions but also limiting the effectiveness of the provincial armies, worked towards reinforcing the central powers but weakening the response of the empire to external threats.
And interesting to see that history repeats itself. Centuries later the Eastern Roman Empire disbanded the Thematic provincial system, that was working perfectly but concentrated much power on the provincial governors, in favor of the Tagmatic Army controlled by the emperor.
Again the ERE fell.

[GeorgiBG]

Rome formed or how to say it - layed down the foundation for what we call now European civilization. Without it the world now would look so different that we would not be able to recognise it.

The people who wrote this are idiots at 120%.

[Diocletianus]

I agree with the meaning of your post, but I quoted the last part, because it's exactly what I think, and what actually the historians of the Early Middle Age are discovering everyday, correcting the FALSE assuption that after Rome all became dark, barbaric and dirty. No, this is not true, after Rome and on its ruins flourished the European Romano-Germanic civilization and the Arab civilization; there, outside the ruins of Rome, there is still a world, a whole universe, which need only to be (re)discovered, and studied at least with the same attention we abitually deserve to the Greek-Roman Civilization.

I believe that if Rome had not become the empire we know today, maybe we woudn't have acces to the greek classical knowledge and the hellenistic science. The Roman science, technology and philosophy are a direct inheritance from the greeks before them. It is the impressive cultural strength of the roman civilisation that we owe almost anything. They are the basis of our western civilisation. I think the title of «cancer» is therefor not appropriate for Rome.

Anyone here read the interresting thesis of Henri Pirenne ? As early as 1937, he argued that the ''classical'' world did not fall with the western roman empire but either with Charlemagne or the arabian invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries. This is a testimony to the strength of the roman culture and institutions.

Here is a link to an english translation : http://books.google.ca/books?hl=fr&l...page&q&f=false

[Sertorio]

Agreed. The Roman Empire actually expanded the Greek culture beyond the Hellenistic world itself, specially on the western part of the world. But i have read that also the Islamic Culture that achieved dominance on Iberia, Africa to Asia also absorbed and transmitted Greek knowledge. That possibility cannot be overlooked.

[Diocle]

Two good posts dear friends, two good posts Pirenne is a legend for me and we frequently understimate the role of the Arabs in the European history, thanks I like Internet ..... sometime.

[Riothamus]

Those who don't understand the role of the Greek-Roman culture and civilization in the basis of our present, are people whose existence on this planet is meaningless.

Its amazing to me how quickly to the point when you want, and ice in your veins wit, you can deliver a point. Ok sorry... carry on

[wulfgar610]

According to this historian, Rome was a cancer!

[Architect of Doom]

Well, I usually just try to ignore stupid comments like that - and downvote them if possible. Sadly, Youtube has become a place for ignorant and idiot people to express their worthless ideas and offend those who counter them. Actually, one day I was even offended by some idiot just because I wrote the word "faggot" on my comment, as a form of a joke.

About Rome, all I can say is that I wouldn't like to live on world without it. They were key for the development of our western culture, which I so deeply appreciate.

[Rinan]

Maybe a bit of a necro, but I would like to share my opinion on the matter.

I think many people forget history is never a story of black versus white, good versus evil. J.R.R. Tolkien may have based his world on history, but history is not fantasy and there are many shades of grey. In reality, the peoples whom Rome conquered lived their own lives and never wished to be conquered. The Romans eradicated several cultures from history - The Druids, the Carthaginians, but most ancient cultures would've done the same. Nevertheless, Rome, and by extension, the Hellenic world, achieved great advances in science, statecraft, philosophy and arts which would not have been possible in unurbanized Gaul or Hispania. This does not neccesarily make Rome better - From an anthropological point of view both kinds of cultures are equally respectable. However, it's philosophy, arts and urban culture that we admire, and hence it's the Romans we admire most. But we are not the only ones... Apparently the ideal of Rome caught on in the ancient world as well, judging how thoroughly and relatively quickly many were Romanised.

So: Not a cancer, not a greatness, but definitely an achievement.