Shogun 2?? anyone else?

[ray243]

I certainly think that the middle east should be included...given that the tang dynasty do have alot of influence in the middle east region.

And the mongols as well...

[Osceola]

If they are going to do Shogun 2, then they better make something that has something with history.
No more Geisha and Ninja crap.

Geisha would have been fine for entourage, ninja however full well belong to history. This trend among historians of Japanese history to try and make themselves legit by claiming ninja are bollocks, is in itself bollocks.

The subculture of samurai from the area now known as Iga and Koga, was never called "ninja" (it's the Chinese reading of the character shinobi, translated to "nin-sha" and then Japonicised back to "nin-ja") and only referred to as shi-no-bi when referring to a certain job.

But rest assured "they" did exist, were active and important, and whether they ever wore something similar to a black commando costume, is irrelevant.

I would not be surprised at all if they did however, and it's not fantasy to assume they did either, it's a common Asian and Middle Eastern attire for a thief. Not only that it's common sense, or else modern spec ops would not choose black BDU's and balaclava.

-------------------------------

Good topic, I whole heartedly agree and I think the next TW should be an "Asia - Total War." We just need to come up with a better name for it. I'll post more later!

[duda]

I would really love SHOGUN 2.

[Chukada1]

I want a game where I can pit Han against Rome.

But that's about it. After being spoiled with gunpowder, I couldn't care about anything less then Empire: Total war from Creative Assembly.

[Juggernaut]

Geisha would have been fine for entourage, ninja however full well belong to history. This trend among historians of Japanese history to try and make themselves legit by claiming ninja are bollocks, is in itself bollocks.

The subculture of samurai from the area now known as Iga and Koga, was never called "ninja" (it's the Chinese reading of the character shinobi, translated to "nin-sha" and then Japonicised back to "nin-ja") and only referred to as shi-no-bi when referring to a certain job.

But rest assured "they" did exist, were active and important, and whether they ever wore something similar to a black commando costume, is irrelevant.

I would not be surprised at all if they did however, and it's not fantasy to assume they did either, it's a common Asian and Middle Eastern attire for a thief. Not only that it's common sense, or else modern spec ops would not choose black BDU's and balaclava.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have ninjas at all. They should definitely be in as some kind of spy(but with different name than ninja). By ninja crap I mean the black pyjama ninjas in STW performing ridiculous assassinations.

I don't have time to go in detail, but ninja NEVER wore black pyjamas. They either wore unassuming civilian clothes or modified peasant cloth.
The color black actually is not good for stealth in night, because your silhouette would be exposed in darkness. They used either dark orange or brown for their gear, and every surviving ninja uniform from the period uses this color. The black pyjama ninja only started appearing in plays during Edo jidai, and it has no bearing to reality.

Ninjas were, simply put, spies performing various espionage acts. They were not some mythical super assassins. And your explanation about the origin of the term Ninja is wrong. Ninja 忍者 is a term that emerged in Edo jidai, which simply means "man of stealth". The term Shinobi is also a product of Edo jidai, and in Sengoku jidai, there was no unified term for Ninja. Depending on time and place they had names like Rappa, Kusa, Monomi, Kancho etc.

[Osceola]

Your dealing in absolutes, which you cannot do, no one knows for certain what they wore, they could be performing that overly elaborate bakemono tactic they pulled that on time, and thus be wearing the attire of an enemy soldier. They could have been wearing very light armour and something to blend in with their surroundings, and masking themselves wouldn't have been foolish either.

I know about the black thing, I was just listing for example current spec ops BDU's. Dark navy blue however would have been more then reasonable, and to this day, though it is admittedly difficult to verify them, many traditions in Japan speak of dying clothing dark blue to both absorb blood stains, blend in with the night, etc. This would not have been anything overly exotic or ridiculous, this would simply have been the regular clothing any samurai would wear under heavy armour. Add in some very light armour, guns, explosives, a short sword or half yari, not to mention their own , region specific weapons such as Bansen-Shukai records, and thats what I would say they would have worn during unconventional warfare. Throw on a mask and you have what would immediately be identifiable to modern people, as "ninjas."

As for assassinations, we don't know how common it was or not. But I still think it foolish to count it out. The fact is I don't think assassinations were useful enough, to have been much recorded. Remember, theres not that many records of assassinations in medieval Europe, however when they went on Crusade, it became epidemic. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, or they were incapable, it means it wasn't considered that useful of an option.

Also, I've been studying Japanese history for most of this decade, read every single thing I could get my hands on. It started my interest in warfare. And I highly doubt your correct, I'd love to see some evidence from the Sengoku Jidai talking about "ninja." It's a Chinese word, simply put.

Ninjas were, simply put, spies performing various espionage acts. They were not some mythical super assassins. And your explanation about the origin of the term Ninja is wrong. Ninja 忍者 is a term that emerged in Edo jidai, which simply means "man of stealth". The term Shinobi is also a product of Edo jidai, and in Sengoku jidai, there was no unified term for Ninja. Depending on time and place they had names like Rappa, Kusa, Monomi, Kancho etc.

Your saying the same thing about "ninja" that I said about shinobi. Yes I know all about the Rappa,, Kusa, Kancho, etc. Don't talk down to me, I've studied this for a disgustingly long time. Also, calling them spies over simplifies it, it's ridiculous. A spy understood nowadays, means the operative himself, who is undercover or infiltrating, to gather intelligence. Thats.. correct description for some of their jobs, but not for the rest. Do we call the Green Berets "spies"? No, we call them Special Forces (if were going to apply modern terminology to 500 years ago) and if you'll notice, the activities of Green Berets (they are as misportrayed by Hollywood as ninjas are) closely mirror that which the ninja did, gathering intelligence, going into battle first before anyone else, sabotage, causing chaos amongst the enemy, occasionally assassination (assassinatng an enemy officer during war time.. is not.. exactly.. exotic.. nor is it unreasonable to assume they did.. ) and of course infiltrating behind enemy lines, undercover or posing as the enemy. Not to mention counter insurgency, sowing the seeds for insurgency, leading insurgents/partisans.

Are the Green Berets "spies"? No, they are special forces. Jesus.

Like I said, it's a ridiculous and extremely annoying habit among "historians" to downgrade the ninja down to "spies" and then acting like even that term is nothing important, special or impressive. Not at all, they were the first pre-cursor to modern special forces, and deserve the credit. And they definitely fought. Just because they didn't do it in black pajamas, or engage in nothing but assassination, does not make them any less important, or impressive.

Lets continue to talk bout other factions though here, I don't want this as a Japanocentric game. China dudes..

Btw, what on earth are you calling "surviving ninja clothing"!?

And yes I agree brown would have been a colour to use sure, it has obvious camoflage for any guerilla type fighter in a forested area.

[Empress Meg]

I understand that you want to talk about the future of TW games, but this isn't the place for that particular discussion. You may want to do a search next time to discover if people already have threads on this topic floating around.

Moving and merging with a thread in the STW general discussion forum.

Devoirs The Empress

[EpicJon]

lol just got promoted, now your terrorizing threads

JK.

what does merging with another thread do?

-EJon

[Juggernaut]

Your dealing in absolutes, which you cannot do, no one knows for certain what they wore, they could be performing that overly elaborate bakemono tactic they pulled that on time, and thus be wearing the attire of an enemy soldier. They could have been wearing very light armour and something to blend in with their surroundings, and masking themselves wouldn't have been foolish either.

I know about the black thing, I was just listing for example current spec ops BDU's. Dark navy blue however would have been more then reasonable, and to this day, though it is admittedly difficult to verify them, many traditions in Japan speak of dying clothing dark blue to both absorb blood stains, blend in with the night, etc. This would not have been anything overly exotic or ridiculous, this would simply have been the regular clothing any samurai would wear under heavy armour. Add in some very light armour, guns, explosives, a short sword or half yari, not to mention their own , region specific weapons such as Bansen-Shukai records, and thats what I would say they would have worn during unconventional warfare. Throw on a mask and you have what would immediately be identifiable to modern people, as "ninjas."

All of this doesn't make the STW's depiction of ninjas anything accurate or even feasible at all.
Also, "regular clothing" and Hollywood ninja costumes aren't the same thing.

As for assassinations, we don't know how common it was or not. But I still think it foolish to count it out. The fact is I don't think assassinations were useful enough, to have been much recorded. Remember, theres not that many records of assassinations in medieval Europe, however when they went on Crusade, it became epidemic. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, or they were incapable, it means it wasn't considered that useful of an option.

Even if assassinations were performed, it was much more subtle(like poisoning) than those ridiculous stunts performed by ninjas in STW. You have played STW have you?

Also, I've been studying Japanese history for most of this decade, read every single thing I could get my hands on. It started my interest in warfare. And I highly doubt your correct, I'd love to see some evidence from the Sengoku Jidai talking about "ninja." It's a Chinese word, simply put.

I've been reading about Japanese history since I was 7 years-old. I grew up in Japan, and even now I can read and speak Japanese more fluently than my English. I've read a fair number of books about warfare in Sengoku jidai(written by Japanese scholars) and I can 100% confidently say that ninjas in STW has no resemblence to reality at all.

What do you mean by "Sengoku Jidai talking about "ninja""? What I said was the opposite. I'm saying the term ninja was invented by story tellers in late Edo jidai~Meiji jidai. You probably know this, but kanji for 忍者 simply means "man of stealth". 忍 means stealth/sneaking and 者 means man/person. The On-yomi of 忍者 is ninja, like 間者 kanja, another term for ninja. Is this what you meant by "Chinese reading"?

Also, the term ninja didn't even became popular until writers like Kikkawa Eiji and Yamada Futaro used it frequently in their works.

Your saying the same thing about "ninja" that I said about shinobi. Yes I know all about the Rappa,, Kusa, Kancho, etc. Don't talk down to me, I've studied this for a disgustingly long time. Also, calling them spies over simplifies it, it's ridiculous. A spy understood nowadays, means the operative himself, who is undercover or infiltrating, to gather intelligence. Thats.. correct description for some of their jobs, but not for the rest. Do we call the Green Berets "spies"? No, we call them Special Forces (if were going to apply modern terminology to 500 years ago) and if you'll notice, the activities of Green Berets (they are as misportrayed by Hollywood as ninjas are) closely mirror that which the ninja did, gathering intelligence, going into battle first before anyone else, sabotage, causing chaos amongst the enemy, occasionally assassination (assassinatng an enemy officer during war time.. is not.. exactly.. exotic.. nor is it unreasonable to assume they did.. ) and of course infiltrating behind enemy lines, undercover or posing as the enemy. Not to mention counter insurgency, sowing the seeds for insurgency, leading insurgents/partisans.

Are the Green Berets "spies"? No, they are special forces. Jesus.

I stand corrected. I fully agree with you. It is rash to brand them as "simple spies". What I meant was that they were not mythical super assassins portrayed in Hollywood, but spy/operatives engaging in various espionage acts, as in information gathering, infiltration, sabotage etc.

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. What I said in the beginning of the thread was "no more Geisha and ninja crap". By ninja crap, what I had in mind was the typical Hollywood portrayal of ninjas in STW, wearing black pyjamas and "flipping out and killing people". I didn't say that ninjas didn't exist, or they were simple ordinary spies. While I think calling them "special forces" is overrating their "tactical" side too much, I know they were more than simple spies.

[ray243]

I want to ask the mods this question...why the hell is ASIA total war in a shogun total war section???

I mean just because it can be shogun total war, does not mean it will definetly BE a 100 remake of shogun total war, and covering only japan.


Asia total war is very broad, and I don't want to limit this thread's disscussion to JUST shogun era ONLY.


Mods, at the least give us a future total war game section on this forum.

[Osceola]

All of this doesn't make the STW's depiction of ninjas anything accurate or even feasible at all.
Also, "regular clothing" and Hollywood ninja costumes aren't the same thing.



Even if assassinations were performed, it was much more subtle(like poisoning) than those ridiculous stunts performed by ninjas in STW. You have played STW have you?



I've been reading about Japanese history since I was 7 years-old. I grew up in Japan, and even now I can read and speak Japanese more fluently than my English. I've read a fair number of books about warfare in Sengoku jidai(written by Japanese scholars) and I can 100% confidently say that ninjas in STW has no resemblence to reality at all.

What do you mean by "Sengoku Jidai talking about "ninja""? What I said was the opposite. I'm saying the term ninja was invented by story tellers in late Edo jidai~Meiji jidai. You probably know this, but kanji for 忍者 simply means "man of stealth". 忍 means stealth/sneaking and 者 means man/person. The On-yomi of 忍者 is ninja, like 間者 kanja, another term for ninja. Is this what you meant by "Chinese reading"?

Also, the term ninja didn't even became popular until writers like Kikkawa Eiji and Yamada Futaro used it frequently in their works.



I stand corrected. I fully agree with you. It is rash to brand them as "simple spies". What I meant was that they were not mythical super assassins portrayed in Hollywood, but spy/operatives engaging in various espionage acts, as in information gathering, infiltration, sabotage etc.

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. What I said in the beginning of the thread was "no more Geisha and ninja crap". By ninja crap, what I had in mind was the typical Hollywood portrayal of ninjas in STW, wearing black pyjamas and "flipping out and killing people". I didn't say that ninjas didn't exist, or they were simple ordinary spies. While I think calling them "special forces" is overrating their "tactical" side too much, I know they were more than simple spies.

Admittedly I remember very little from the Shogun games. I do know one preferred method though was sharpshooting or "sniping." The worlds very first case of the use of snipers, were ninja who attempted to assassinate Oda Nobunaga. The account goes that around 11 (don't count me on that, I could be wrong on number) of his mounted hatamoto were killed during the attempt and he himself was hit twice in the breatplate, though it did save him.

The account reminds me of Last of the Mohicans.

So yeah basically I would say were at an agreement.

[ray243]

By the way, are we going to discuss JUST shogun 2 total war, or asia total war in general.

Seriously mod, why did you have to merge two different things together.

I mean you might as well merge Medivial total war and rome total war together JUST because they cover the same continent.

[Katene]

Can you two give a certain definition of the term ninja?

Myself think it is really equivocal!

[Dead Sun]

By the way, are we going to discuss JUST shogun 2 total war, or asia total war in general.

Seriously mod, why did you have to merge two different things together.

I mean you might as well merge Medivial total war and rome total war together JUST because they cover the same continent.

Asia TW

[Hengest]

I'd be up for starting a mod for M2TW that covered the shogunate era... if you're interested PM me

[Logue]

Atmosphere.
AI.
Balance.
Music, voicework, & sound.

Cut scenes (this was the only thing missing from MTW) and regional honour bonuses ontop of that and every unit had a character and rank. The building tree and balancing of that was also superb since you had a limited amount of slot you had think about what you wanted to get out of that region.

[Stephan de St. Omer]

I myself would vote for an MTW2-style makeover for the old STW. With roads and hills and a whole lot of armies moving around Japan. It had the best atmosphere of all the TW games and the best cutscenes.

[MCDS2]

That would be cool Hross!

[Sensi Karate]

I'd really rather have an Asia: Total War then just Shogun: Total War. Though I think they'll first release a Rome II: Total War with two Campaigns, one mostly around Greece and then another about the whole Medi'. Then they should focus on something around Asia. Just focusing on Japan would be a big disappointment and they should spread further out.

~Sensi

[Thermal]

asia total war more than shogun 2 i think, more quantity, but yes i share your point of view sunman
ran no jidai is looking good 4 shogun lovers do look at it, at the verge of completion it better be anyway