Any suggestions for making cavalry more useful in vanilla MTW?

Hello, guys! In Medieval warfare, knights dominated the battlefield. Not so in vanilla MTW where cavalry can be easily killed despite the high cost. For example, a unit of Chivalric knights costs 675 and can be counted by a lowly unit of Feudal Sergeants for just 200 florins.

On the other hand, Medieval Total War 2 fixed the incompetence of cavalry and made knights very powerful. Mods like axalon's Redux addressed the problem but Redux has a completely different system for units.

My question is this : do you have any suggestions for making knights more effective in vanilla without raising the costs since they are already sky-high? Cheers!

Well, to answer your question directly - there are only a few possible alternatives left then.... One is to change their stats somehow - in order to make them more effective in combat. Another is to change the the entire system of stats - the Redux-path basically. Other then that there is not much one can do to make these units more effective - if we are not allowed to tinker away with the costs. There is little else you can do in this context (as outlined by you), me thinks...

- A

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Originally Posted by Axalon

Well, to answer your question directly - there are only a few possible alternatives left then.... One is to change their stats somehow - in order to make them more effective in combat. Another is to change the the entire system of stats - the Redux-path basically. Other then that there is not much one can do to make these units more effective - if we are not allowed to tinker away with the costs. There is little else you can do in this context (as outlined by you), me thinks...

- A

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Thank you for posting, Axalon. The Redux unit roster is probably the most promising for cavalry. I cannot overstate how impressed I am by what you have done with MTW. Having said that I have been trying to do something different and I have come up with an idea. Why not use the Shogun model, where all units are comprised of 60 warriors? I have tested this idea in my mod, aptly named as Age of Cavalry, and it is showing some promise. What do you think about the Shogun model?

Hi again Leith (and thanks)...

Personally, I think that the Shogun-model of restricting all units to 60 men only is actively removing one possible parameter to work with in the overall unit-grid in MTW. If we only have a few units in our game or mod - this won't matter much (like in Shogun) but if we have 100+ (or more) units it will probably be another story. With many units included in the game or mod - one will basically need as much distinctions and such parameters one can get. This in order to ensure some actual and meaningful levels of diversity between each unit. The fewer parameters and distinctions we have at our disposal the harder it gets to achieve such diversity. And if all that is ignored, it may very well end up with a bunch of structural clone-units (with no individual distinctions) to various extents - and that is usually never a good idea.

While different GFX may camouflage such clones to some extent, it can't save us from that circumstance forever or to great extents. I know that some MTW-mods of the past have clearly suffered (to various extents) from this very problem, as have the raw game as well (especially the V.2.01). Redux also have a few clones here and there - usually out of necessity as the parameters and variables available are limited. Essentially, forcing such clones into existence. Basically, it is very hard to avoid if we have plenty of units included, like Redux for instance.

On general terms, maximum diversity is always highly desirable as a principle in traditional game-design. However, it is much easier said then actually done. Also, the more units you include into the game or mod, the harder it is to truly achieve. Anyhow, "size" is unquestionably one of the possible parameters we have in MTW unit-mechanics. If you want to remove it - you will somehow also make things less complex and varied. There are no question about that.

Anyhow, try it... If it works, it works - if so, then stick with it...

- A

Thanks, Axalon! I concur that diversity is very appealing. I'm also disappointed by the unit cloning technique used in MTW, MTW2, and even Rome total war. I have implemented the shogun unit stats in my mod and things were pretty interesting at the beginning. Then as I started adding new units, I realised how limited my choices are because of the elemination of the size factor and because of balance-related issues. Now I have decided to follow the vanilla path but with a lot of modifications especially where cavalry is concerned. I increased the number of riders for a lot of cavalry units to 50 and decreased the prices, for example. I'm still experimenting but so far things are looking good for cavalry. The new Chivalric Knights for instance cost 625 instead of 675 and their stats are: charge 10 Attack 5 Defense 5 armour 8 Honor 6..minor speed reduction. This unit is dominating the battlefield so far, even though I raised the spear-armed units' morale/honor. Their charge is truly devastating, as it should have been in MTW.


Finally here are the new Chivalric Knights textures. Hope you like them:

https://imgur.com/a/w6f6Ojl

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Originally Posted by Leith1970

... I'm still experimenting but so far things are looking good for cavalry.

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Well, with enough tinkering and altering with them unit-stats you will probably get somewhere close to where you want it in terms of effect (at least for cavalry). The capacity for it, should be there in MTW-mechanics. Its just a matter of figuring out how to get there. Do lots of experiments and testing, eventually you might end up with good results...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leith1970

Finally here are the new Chivalric Knights textures. Hope you like them:

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Here is the picture in question, folks (if you like it, send some reps to Leith1970)...
https://i.imgur.com/4yUE7Tm.jpg

Not bad... I see that you got the shield and weapons-coordinates right as well. Might I suggest that you darken (or change color on) the horses "skin/fur" for increased contrast in regards to their armor. As it is right now the colors are too close for easy (and clear) distinction between them. Just a thought for you.

- A

Thank you so much, Axalon! I will continue to experiment till I am content with the outcome. The riders and their steeds were intentionally made similar, almost to suggest that they are one and the same. Thank you for your feedback!

Don't forget also that knights did dominate the battlefield for sometime during the early medieval period, but they did suffer a demise in the later years of this period as battlefield tactics changed, maybe the high period a bit weaker?

Spearmen and pikemen are just designed to deter cavalry. And they do it well, especially when they keep the order of battle and use the maximum support ranks (and the "hold position" mode is enabled, which gives +2 to defense,
but -2 to attack), but kill the cavalry slowly. As I understand it, units that have protection against cavalry are able to extinguish the charge of cavalry, but only if they meet it face to face. If you allow a blow from the side or from behind, your spearmen will quickly crumble. They also have big problems with attack and defense, against good infantry spearmen are ineffective. So if not against the cavalry, then why are they even needed?)=